FAQS

QUESTIONS & ANSWERS (FAQS)

NEW QUESTION - 1/8/2010

Q - ICS (ICS Ltd) is asked to further clarify this statment made as an answer to a quesion dated 23/7/2010 "Irish Cob Society Nederland does not have a Main Section Basic foal register, based on pedigree, as laid down in the ICS Ltd Priniples which divides the Main Section into classes based on breeding status of the parents."

A - ICS (ICS Ltd) has established Principles which divide the Main Section into 4 classes 1A, 1B, 2A & 2B which make allowance for the breeding status of both parents in Irish Cob stud books (without discrimination) - view stud book divisions. All 4 classes make up the MAIN BASIC REGISTER (THE FULL IRISH COB PEDIGREE FOAL REGISTER) for Irish Cob progeny only. The Covering Certificate must be available and show that BOTH parents are registered Irish Cobs, in an approved Irish Cob Stud Book. Please veiw Article 1 - 1. & Article 3 - 2. of CD 96/78/EC.

Irish Cob Society Nederland do not follow the ICS Ltd Principles and have only 2 classes in the Main Basic Section VB1 (Class 1) and VB2 (Class 2) - view Irish Cob Society Nederland's studbook divisions. By not having the 4 classes established in the ICS (ICS Ltd) certain aniamls would be excluded from inspection for inclusion in a selective breeding programme - if they had one, thereby discriminating against breeders. Irish Cob Society Nederland premium ("premier") grades certain animals - which is at variance with the ICS Ltd Priniples and irish Cob Society Nederland have no Elite classes including animals, which at the minimum age of 2 years of age, have been inspected and selected specifically from the 4 classes in the Main Basic Section, and the Supplementary Basic Section, for inclusion in a selective breed programme. It is against EU legislation and the ICS Ltd Principles that Irish Cob Society Neredland do not have a specific selective breeding programme. Grading ("premier" etc.) cannot in itself be a selective breeding programme in the stud book, but can be used as "a measure" for inspecting animals for their suitablity for inclusion in the selective breeding programme of a stud book, provided that the grade level which must be attained to qualify for inclusion in the selective breed programme are specified in the stud book rules of the organization. Gradings cannot be used as stud book divisions.

Irish Cob Society Nederland in their stud book rules do not call the foal register classes in the Main Section THE MAIN BASIC REGISTER, as is clearly laid down in ICS Ltd Principles. It is also confusing for those who may think that term "basis" which was "established" by Irish Cob Society Nederland is the same as the Main Basic Register - they are not at all !!. There is no explaination (legal or otherwise) for the term "basis" and Irish Cob Society Nederland illegally uses the term "basis" as a studbook class description on EC specified Section pages in passports. There is no explaination in Irish Cob Society Nederland's stud book rules which would explains the use of their term "basis" - view Irish Cob Society Nederland's studbook divisions.

Irish Cob Society Nederland also has a foal register in the Supplementary Section called VB3. VB3 is an illegal Irish Cob part bred register, as the animals entered in the VB3 do not quailfy under CD 96/78/EC for entry into the Supplementary Section, as they were not inspected and judged to conform to the Irish Cob breed standard. In fact the animals in VB3 do not qualify under CD 96/78/EC for entry into any part of any Irish Cob Stud Book. Irish Cob Society Nederland appears to use the term "basis" for the animals which are illegally registered in the illegal VB3 foal register in the Irish Cob Society Nederland's Irish Cob Stud Book. The term "basis" appears to be a smoke screen used by Irish Cob Society Nederland which covers the fact that animals are registered illegally in the Supplementary Section in an illegal VB3 Irish Cob part bred foal register. If Irish Cob Society Nederland (or indeed any organization) wants to register Irish Cob part breds then they must be approved to maintain a separate Irish Cob Part Bred stud book. If Irish Cob Society Nederland ever did terminate the illegal VB3 Irish Cob part bred foal register in the Supplementary Section of the Irish Cob stud book, they did not inform their affiliated organizations who have been working to date with the illegal VB3 Supplementary Irish Cob part bred foal, in the belief that "VB3 basis" is "okay", because they trusted that Irish Cob Society Nederland was following the ICS Ltd Principles. As a result, there are many Irish Cob part breds registered in approved Irish Cob stud books, which can only be regarded as a tragedy for the Irish Cob breed, as the breed will inevitably become diluted if the problem is not suitably addressed. That is what is meant when it is stated that ICS (ICS Ltd) has a huge mess to clear up because of Irish Cob Society Nederland and the victim is the Irish Cob breed. CD 96/78/EC is laid down by the EC to protect breeds and by Irish Cob Society Nederland introducing an Irish Cob part bred register into the Supplementary Section in breach of CD 96/78/EC thay have broken the law and endangered the Irish Cob breed.

NEW QUESTION - 24/7/2010

Q - Does ICS (ICS Ltd) grade animals ?

A - Yes. As a breeding organization ICS finds grading a most useful excercise and very valuable service for breeders and owners. ICS (ICS Ltd) uses the grades achieved to decide if an animal is suitable for inclusion in the ICS (ICS Ltd) selective breeding programme. Although animals can be graded from foals they cannot be included in the selective breeding programme of any Irish Cob Stud Book until they are at least two years of age. Animals which are of a sufficiently high grade are given the title Elite Class in the ICS (ICS Ltd) stud book and the grade achieved can be recorded on the winnings / competition page if wanted by owners. Grading can be most informative for owners and offers great scope for competition. The ICS Ltd equivilant of "Ster" (Irish Cob Society Nederlands top grade) is "Star". Owners can enjoy great competition and fun seeking to achieve a "Star" award. Four 1st Grades would earn a "Star". Again, it must be pointed out that grades and "Star" awards are not stud book classes.

NEW QUESTION - 23/7/2010

Q - Marijke Heijkoop (Irish Cob Society Nederland) has publicized (sent by email) a letter (to someone concerned with O.S Chovatelú Irskych Cobú) in which she states that ICS / ICS Ltd demand the other studbooks and breeder groups to sign a contract in which ICS Ltd has the right to appoint the judges and that all studbooks have to obey that. In the email letter Marijke Heijkoop also states that after signing the contract ICS Czeck must obey mrs Flynn and that O.S Chovatelú Irskych Cobú is now no longer free to have their own stud book and that Marta will now be ruler in the name of ICS Ltd. Are Marijke Heijkoop statements true ?
A - No. Marijke Heijkoop's statements in the email letter referred to are completely false and misleading information (lies) intended to damage Evelyn Flynn and the ICS (ICS Ltd). Marijke Heijkoop's use of "between the lines threating" scare mongering tactics using lies are both unethical and libel and are intended to scare people away from Evelyn Flynn and ICS (ICS Ltd) so as they will "return" to her. ICS (ICS Ltd) would defy Marijke Heijkoop to produce any ICS (ICS Ltd) contract which forces affiliated organizations to do any of the things Marijke Heijkoop is accusing ICS (ICS Ltd of) in her email letter in the above question.

ICS (ICS Ltd) is aware that O.S Chovatelú Irskych Cobú has an application lodged with the authotities in the Czech Republic for approval to maintain an Irish Cob stud book and ICS (ICS Ltd) fully supports the O.S Chovatelú Irskych Cobú application. Please click on email letter written by Marijke Heijkoop to which is referred (english translation above) so it will be seen that ICS (ICS Ltd) makes statements and declaration based on actual existing documentation. In Marijke Heijkoop's letter she has concocted (made up) statements and declarations in order to discredit ICS Ltd so as organizations and Irish Cob owners will support Irish Cob Society Nederland and turn their back on ICS (ICS Ltd). In a court of law factual documented evidence supporting any of Marijke Heijkoop's statements and declaration would be the first thing looked for.

NEW QUESTION - 23/7/2010

Q - Does Irish Cob Society Nederland follow the ICS Ltd Principles ?

A - No. Irish Cob Society Nederland does not follow the ICS (ICS Ltd) Principles.

The ICS Ltd Principles divides the Main Section (the full Irish Cob pedigree foal register) into 4 Basic Register classes according to the breeding status of the parents in the stud books ("first order of merit"). At the minimum age of 2 years, ALL foals in all 4 classes registered in Main Basic Register (without discrimmination) have the chance to prove themselves as "worthy" in the own right - ("second order of merit") and can be inspected for inclusion in a selective breeding programme (despite the breeding status of their parents in the stud book). Animals chosen for inclusion in the selective breeding programmes of breeding organization are titled Elite Class.

Irish Cob Society Nederland has "establshed" "Priniples", which do not allow animals to be entered into the stud book in accordance with the "first order of merit" (based on breeding status of parents) as establshed in the ICS (Ltd) Principles.
Irish Cob Society Nederland does not have a Main Section Basic foal register based pedigree - see Article 1 - 1. and Article 2 of CD 96/78/EC (click on link) as laid down in the ICS Ltd Priniples which divides the Main Section into classes based on breeding status of the parents. As well as Irish Cob Society Nederland ignoring the "first order of merit", the second "order of merit" "established" by Irish Cob Society Nederland is totally at variance with the ICS Ltd Principles. Instead of inspecting animals at the minimum age of 2 years of age for inclusion in a selective breeding programme as required, Irish Cob Society Nederland just grades (premiums) from foals up ! Also, for some reason, Irish Cob Society Nederland appears to exclude certain animal from grading (such would be veiw as discrimination by ICS (ICS Ltd). Grading of any kind is informative and competition only and has no place being mentioned in the Priniples of any approved Irish Cob stud book keeping organization. ICS (ICS Ltd) informed Irish Cob Society Nederland that premium grading is not accepted by ICS (ICS Ltd) in the Principles and it can only be "as on the day" at any time, and is in conflict with CD 96/78/EC and the ICS Ltd Principles. Irish Cob Society Nederland has only been informed that organizations who wish to grade animals (premium grade etc) should do so, but the information (grading details) must placed on a breeding organization competition page in the passport and not on any of the EC specified passport Sections (as laid down in CR 504/2008). Irish Cob Society Nederland state that they follow the ICS (ICS Ltd) Principles but they do not, and ICS (ICS Ltd) has much work to do correcting breeding organizations who been have following incorrect "Principles" "established" by Irish Cob Society Nederland. I would also point out that the stud book class must be recorded on Certificate of Origin (Section 11 of the passport - as laid down in CR 504/2008). Organization names (such as ICS) and grades are not Irish Cob stud book classes. E.g. Irish Cob Society Nederland have in their passports for Studbook Class - PREMIER ICS BASIS. PREMIER, is just a grade, is it first grade, second grade, or third grade ? ICS, is an organization (the one in Ireland - us) and ragarding BASIS, there is no Basis in any Irish Cob Stud Book. There are however two Basic Sections. The Main Basic Register and the Supplementary Basic Register. Irish Cob Society Nederland fails to show the following in their passports: - (a) if an animal is registered in the Main or Supplementary Section - which implies they do not have either, (b) if an animal was included in a selective breeding programme having been inspected at the minimum age of 2 years, (c) the class of the animal in the stud book according to parents - Main or Supplementary and their breeding status in the stud book. This information is required, they are not following CD 96/78/EC (click on link) or the ICS (ICS Ltd) Principles

Q - WHY DOES ICS AFFILIATE APPROVED ORGANIZATIONS

A - Although ICS affiliation of approved organizations is not a requirement of EU legislation, ICS has had no option but to ensure that approved organizations sign an affiliation agreement with ICS, so as it can be shown which approved organizations actually have a co-operation agreement with the ICS (the organization in Ireland approved to maintain the stud book of the origin of the breed). ICS affiliation of approved organizations was also introduced by ICS in an effort to protect the registered name of the Irish Cob Society together with our logo from continued unauthorised use by approved organizations or any other third party. If approved organizations do not choose to affiliate to ICS then they do not have to. However, they are legally obliged to follow the ICS Principles and to refrain from using Irish Cob Society in the title of their name, or, from use the ICS logo/design, or, a logo/design which lacks novelty or is similar to the one first established, exposed and publicized by the ICS from 2000.
NOTE REGARDING THE ICS LOGO: OHIM legislation reasonably infers, that the party which first exposes a design to the public is the rightful owner of that design, as no other party can register as holder of that design, without such registration being invalidated by OHIM (where the original owner makes an application to OHIM to invalidate the registration) - see OHIM DECISION - second page,
The Invalidy Devision. The registration of the Irish Cob Society's logo by Irish Cob Society Nederland is declared by the OHIM to be INVALID. Although Irish Cob Society Nederland may claim to be "the holder" of the ICS logo, OHIM has made any such "holding" by Irish Cob Society Nederland to be invalid (not valid / not legal).
The Irish Cob Society made the application to OHIM in it's capacity as a limited company (The Irish Cob Society Limited) as the matter is a lagal.

Q - What and who is ICS and ICS Ltd ?

A - The Irish Cob Society (ICS) was established and founded in Ireland in 1998 and in the same year the ICS was granted approval to maintain the studbook of origin ("Mother stud book") for the breed Irish Cob. In 2002 the Irish Cob Society was INCORPORATED (included, built-in, integrated - Encarta Dictionary) into a legal personality as a registered Limited Company. As a result, the name Irish Cob Society (ICS) was registered in Ireland in 2002 and the legal function of the Irish Cob Society Ltd (ICS Ltd) was to take over the business of ICS. The ICS, founded in 1998, is still in existence as part of ICS Ltd and this has always been made clear by the continued use by ICS Ltd of the ICS logo, with the words THE IRISH COB SOCIETY, on all ICS Ltd headed paper and on the ICS Ltd website etc from 2000. The ICS is the ICS Ltd and no other organization, person or party may call itself the Irish Cob Society or ICS.

Q - Can an approved organization call itself an approved stud-book ?

A - No. An approved organization is simply an organization which has legal personality in accordance with the legislation in force in the Member State where the organization was approved. An approved organization (having legal personality in it's own Member State) is totally separate to any other approved organization. An approved organization is not an approved stud-book, it is an organization approved to maintain a stud-book. An approved organization and the stud book it is approved to maintain are two totally separate things. An approved organization cannot refer to itself as being "an approved stud-book". Any organization which would refer to itself as being "an approved stud-book" would giving misleading and confusing information.

Q - Is there such a thing as a mother or daughter stud book ?

A - No. There are no such terms in EU legislation or any National legislation as mother or daughter stud-books. The term mother stud book has become commonly known outside of any legislation to mean - the approved stud-book of the origin of the breed. The term daughter stud-book has become commonly known outside of any legislation to mean - any approved stud-book other than the approved stud-book of the origin of the breed. Use of the term daughter stud-book can wrongly give the impression that "daughter stud-books" are in some way "part of" the approved stud-book of the origin of the breed. This is not the case. All approved stud-books are separate stud-books, maintained by separate approved organizations (with separate legal personality), in different Member States. The only difference between the approved stud-book of the origin of the breed and any other approved stud-book of the same breed is, that the PRINCIPLES established by the approved stud-book of the origin of the breed must be followed by all other organizations approved to maintain stud-books for the same breed. All approved organizations must also follow the rules laid down in European Commission Decision 96/78/EC when registering animals into their approved stud-books. CD 96/78/EC allows animals which are registered in one approved stud-book of a breed ALSO be registered into a class in any other stud-book of the same breed which criteria it meets. This allows for an equal legal relationship between all approved stud-books of the same breed to be established in accordance with the rules laid down by the Commission. ICS Ltd is approved maintain the approved stud-book of the origin of the breed for the breeds Irish Cob and Irish Cob Part Bred. ICS PRINCIPLES

Q - What is an ICS Ltd affiliated organization ?

A - There are two kinds of ICS Ltd affiliated organizations.

1. An organizations which is approved to maintain an Irish Cob or Irish Cob Part Bred Stud Book.
2. An ICS Ltd representative organization, which is not approved to maintain an Irish Cob or Irish Cob Part Bred Stud Book, but which solely promotes the registration of Irish Cobs or Irish Cob Part Breds into the ICS Ltd Irish Cob or Irish Cob Part Bred Stud Book in Ireland. See ICS Ltd Affiliated Organizations

Q - Can approved Irish Cob stud-book keeping organizations, other than ICS Ltd, establish affiliated organizations outside of their own country ?

A - Yes. Approved stud-book keeping organization are legally entitled under EC legislation to establish affiliated organizations outside of their own country. However, ICS Ltd will not affiliate or recognize any organizations which are affiliated to other approved Irish Cob or Irish Cob Part Bred stud book keeping organizations. Organizations which are not affiliated to ICS Ltd, but which are affiliated to other approved Irish Cob or Irish Cob Part Bred stud-book keeping organizations, are not allowed to use the ICS Ltd logo, or a logo similar in design to the ICS Ltd logo.

Q - Can other approved stud-book keeping organizations issue passports for ICS Ltd representative organizations ?

A - No. ICS Ltd representative organizations (see 2. of Q5 above) are solely ICS Ltd representative organizations and may not get Irish Cob or Irish Cob passports issued by any organization other than ICS Ltd.

Q - Is the ICS Ltd affiliated organization ICS Sweden accepted by ICS Ltd to look after Irish Cob breeders in Scandinavia ?

A - Yes. However, although Irish Cob Society Sweden has been accepted by ICS Ltd as an appropriate approved Irish Cob Stud Book keeping organization to look after the interests of Irish Cob breeders in other Scandinavian countries (as may be agreed by ICS Ltd), it does not prejudice the right of ICS Ltd to establish ICS Ltd affiliated Stud Book representatives organizations in any Scandinavian country, nor does it prejudice the right of any other approved organization in Scandinavia from affiliating to ICS Ltd.

Q - Irish Cob Society Nederland is now calling itself ICS (Irish Cob Society) Nederland and uses a logo similar to the ICS / ICS Ltd logo on the Irish Cob Society Nederland website . Is this allowed ?

A - No. Irish Cob Society Nederland is registered in Holland as a legal personality and Irish Cob Society (ICS) is registered in Ireland (since 2002) as a legal personality (by incorporation - Ltd added to title). By Irish Cob Society Nederland calling itself ICS and putting Irish Cob Society in brackets, Irish Cob Society Nederland would appear to be pretending to be the Irish Cob Society (ICS) and by Irish Cob Society Nederland using a logo on their website which is very similar to the ICS/ICS Ltd logo it further adds to the pretence and illusion that the Irish Cob Society and Irish Cob Society Nederland are one and the same organization, or that the organizations are linked in some way. Irish Cob Society Nederland is not ICS (the Irish Cob Society), Irish Cob Society Nederland is not connected with ICS/ICS Ltd and Irish Cob Society Nederland is not allowed to use the ICS/ICS Ltd logo, or any similar design - see OHIM DECISION which invalidated the illegal registration of the ICS / ICS Ltd logo design by Irish Cob Society Nederland. No organization (other than the Irish Cob Society which is registered in Ireland since 2002) can call itself Irish Cob Society, or ICS, and no organization may use the ICS/ICS logo, or any similar logo design, unless they are affiliated to ICS/ICS Ltd in Ireland. Irish Cob Society Nederland is not affiliated to ICS/ICS Ltd.

Q - Is it legal for any organization other that ICS / ICS Ltd to use ICS (Irish Cob Society) in the title of their organization name ?

A - No. The Irish Cob Society (ICS) is a registered company in Ireland since 2002 and no organization can use the name Irish Cob Society (ICS) in the title of the name of their organization without permission of ICS / ICS Ltd. Only ICS / ICS Ltd affiliated organizations are allowed to use the name Irish Cob Society (ICS) in the title of their name. It is fraud for any organization to use Irish Cob Society (ICS) in the title of the name of their organization without being affiliated to ICS / ICS Ltd, as such organizations are misrepresenting themselves as one and the same as the Irish Cob Society (ICS / ICS Ltd), or representatives of the Irish Cob Society (ICS / ICS Ltd - registered company in Ireland since 2002). ICS / ICS Ltd is aware that some organizations are using Irish Cob Society and ICS without being affiliated to ICS / ICS Ltd. However, as it is possible that some of those organizations may not realise that the name Irish Cob Society (ICS) is a registered company in Ireland since 2002, they may not be aware that they should not be using Irish Cob Society (ICS) in the title of their name. ICS / ICS Ltd intends to allow those organizations the opportunity to correct the situation before ICS / ICS Ltd would initiate legal proceedings against those organizations.

Q - If an organization which is affiliated to ICS / ICS Ltd uses Irish Cob Society or ICS in the title the name of their organization is for some reason they are no longer affiliated to ICS / ICS Ltd can they continue to use Irish Cob Society or ICS in the title of the name of their organization.

A - No. Once an organization is no longer affiliated to ICS / Ltd, for any reason, they are not allowed to continue to use Irish Cob Society or ICS in the title of their name. Irish Cob Society Nederland was once working closely with ICS / ICS Ltd as an ICS representative organization and later Irish Cob Society Nederland was approved to maintain an Irish Cob stud-book. When the co-operation between ICS / ICS Ltd and Irish Cob Society Nederland was broken in 2004, it became no longer "legally appropriate" for Irish Cob Society Nederland to use Irish Cob Society in the title of the name their organization, as they were no longer in any way associated with the Irish Cob Society (the registered company in Ireland). However, for various reasons from mid 2004 up until now ICS / ICS Ltd has not been in a position to pursue the matter. Irish Cob Society Nederland's continued use of Irish Cob Society and ICS in the title of the name of their organization and to promote their organization is not Kosher to say the least. There is much damage caused to the registered Irish Cob Society / Irish Cob Society Ltd (the registered company in Ireland since 2002) as a result of ICS / ICS Ltd not stopping Irish Cob Society Nederland from using Irish Cob Society and ICS from 2004. If ICS / ICS Ltd had stopped Irish Cob Society Nederland from using the name of ICS / Ltd as we should have , it would have prevented other organization affiliating to Irish Cob Society Nederland from thinking that Irish Cob Society Nederland was the Irish Cob Society and they may not have considered using Irish Cob Society or ICS in the names of their organizations. ICS / ICS Ltd intends to correct the situation.

Q - Is it legal for any organization other that ICS / ICS Ltd use the ICS / ICS Ltd logo design, or a similar logo design ?

A - No. Unless an organization is affiliated to ICS / ICS Ltd it is fraud for any organization to use the ICS / Ltd logo, or a similar logo (see OHIM DECISION regarding OHIM decision to invalidate illegal registration of the ICS / ICS Ltd logo by Irish Cob Society Nederland). Irish Cob Society Nederland are perfectly clear in this respect and they have failed to inform their affiliates that they are using a logo belonging to the Irish Cob Society (the registered company in Ireland since 2002). Irish Cob Society Nederland continues to use a logo which is very similar the ICS logo and has no novelty (see B of OHIM decision), without permission from the Irish Cob Society (ICS / ICS Ltd). It is also noted by ICS / ICS Ltd in the OHIM DECISION that Irish Cob Society Nederland is also trading as ICS Nederland without the permission of the Irish Cob Society ICS / ICS Ltd. Together with the points raised in Q9 and Q10 above it all adds to "a grand Irish Cob Society Nederland rip off of the real Irish Cob Society (ICS) in Ireland". Irish Cob Society Nederland is not the Irish Cob Society (ICS) and therefore is not entitled to establish an "International Irish Cob Society". ICS / ICS Ltd appreciates that it is possible that some affiliated organizations of Irish Cob Society Nederland may not be aware that are involved in the "grand Irish Cob Society Nederland rip off of the registered Irish Cob Society (ICS) in Ireland" or "the grand International Irish Cob Society Nederland illusion".

Q - The Irish Cob Society Nederland website states that the Irish Cob is an Anglo-Saxon breed. Is this true ?

A - No. Anglo-Saxon means English-German and has nothing at all to do with Ireland or the Irish Cob breed. Irish is the Native language of Ireland - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language Irish is the first official language of Ireland see - http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/293754/Ireland Also see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language#Ireland (and scroll down to Ireland. There is however is language spoken by the travellers in Ireland called Shelta - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelta The assertion made by Irish Cob Society Nederland that the Irish Cob is an Anglo-Saxon breed is totally false, misleading and is potentially very damaging to Irish Cob breeders and to the Irish Cob breed and indeed to Ireland and it's people. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons

NOTE - FORUMS are the thoughts and opinions of individuals only. The thoughts and opinions of individuals cannot be construed as explanations or used as grounds to prove any actual or legal situation.

Q - Does ICS Ltd recognize Irish Cob Society Nederland's Irish Cob Stud Book ?

A - Yes. The ICS Ltd must in accordance with EC legislation CD 96/78/EC recognizes the stud-books maintained by all organizations approved to maintain stud-books for both the Irish Cob or Irish Cob Part Bred breeds.